Curse

Gaile Gray · Apr 18, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

In this Dev Update, you can read details about changes to two professions: Necromancers and Mesmers. In the first case, changes to the Necromancer attribute Soul Reaping have raised a few specific player concerns, and the dev team would like to share an update on that subject. In the second case, you'll find preliminary information about how the designers are looking at the Mesmer, with some early thoughts on potential changes to the profession that will be directed towards Mesmer players in PvE mode.

Necromancers and Soul Reaping

In a nutshell, Soul Reaping was working too powerfully in the past. After all, all professions save the Necromancer have had to keep a careful eye on energy management, because managing that resource is intended to be a significant part of the gameplay experience. No profession should be in a position to have a nearly-limitless supply or energy, and frankly, Soul Reaping was just too powerful in the overall scope of things. Some have suggested that the recent changes were put in place to rebalance PvP, but in fact, both PvP and PvE were affected by the overly generous way in which Soul Reaping worked. This was highlighted for the team in recent months during their Hard Mode playbalance tests.

The goal of the change to Soul Reaping is to bring the Necromancer's energy pool to a more reasonable level in a way that affects extreme cases more than normal cases. The existing change does successfully place an upper limit on energy from Soul Reaping, but the designers are concerned that the five second rule is inelegant, being a little random in its effects when triggering Soul Reaping through quick kills. They are going to continue to investigate a better way to accomplish the same energy-related "reality check" while being a bit more lenient in how it is applied. If this is done, some of the recent energy cost changes to skills may be reverted.

Those who have contributed forum posts with detailed builds have helped immeasurably. You should know that every single build you've posted is being reproduced at ArenaNet, and not only that, it is being tested with both the former SR rules and the current ones. This allows the designers to acquire a "before and after" view, which will help the designers get a realistic appraisal of where the Nec was and where it is now. With that information, they can look at the best means to accomplish their intended goal. So while Soul Reaping will not be adjusted back to the way it was, the designers will continue to look at ways to achieve the desired outcomes in the best way possible.

Mesmers and PvE

As mentioned a few weeks ago, the designers are going to be taking a look at Mesmers, particularly Mesmers in PvE situations. (We all know they do just fine in PvP.

) ArenaNet has noted that players who choose Mesmer as a profession feel that they are not invited into parties as often as other professions, and the design team feels that this impression is probably correct. Here are three reasons that this might happen:

Scope: Some professions are better at dealing with a large group, where the Mesmer is a more focused profession and the contribution they're making to a party may not be as easily seen. While they can do what they do very well indeed, they are not as likely to have a pile of bodies at their feet, which means that some of their party members may not realize how much the Mesmer is actually contributing to the battle. Of course, whether the swath is fine or broad, it all requires…

Skill: The Mesmer profession requires a high level of skill to play well. That's not to say that other professions do not also require skill, but the Mesmer is rather more complex, and it's possible that across the board, there is a wider range of skill in the Mesmer player group as a whole. Because of this, the Mesmer can be faced with …

Skepticism: When people form a party, particularly a pick-up group, they don't really know for certain if they are choosing a highly skilled Mesmer or someone who's less likely to make a major contribution. When faced with the choice of partners, they may take the easier road, even if they're missing the opportunity to have a more fun and more successful adventure by including a Mesmer.

The word from Lead Designer James Phinney on Mesmers is that the designers are going to take a look at potentially widening the scope of the Mesmers and, perhaps, adding more damage to the mix in a "Mesmer-themed way." The Mesmer will never become a pure damage-dealer, not at all! But the team wants to look at an increase in both scope and damage while considering how to improve the lot of Mesmers in PvE.

Macktar Wang · Apr 18, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Thanks for the update on this. I for one see the relevance of the SR "nerf," however I'm curious as to why they (devs) didn't just adjust it to not trigger on spirits or minions. If we could get some insight on that, I think that would be some useful knowledge.

The mesmer adjustment has me curious. I can't wait to see what they come up with for them.

P.S. - In before the flames!

fgarvin · Apr 18, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

We're all adults here, there won't be any flames...I'm sure of it.

Nekretaal · Apr 18, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Or in other words, shelve your necromancer until anet figures out what to do with the class, because they dont know what to do with the class right now, and dont hope for Mesmers to be decent in pvE until new skills from GW:EN come out.

Illuminator · Apr 18, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Thank you Gaile for bringing this delightful news to the Mesmer community.
On behalf of all Mesmers I say; Thank you all that will do Mesmers more attractive in PVE.

Hell Raiser · Apr 18, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

There is no need to "shelve your necromancer" you just need to learn how to play it without unlimited amounts of energy. Try watching that little blue bar and bring some energy management skills like the other professions.

The Ernada · Apr 18, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

And the complaints have already begun....

Maybe they really should just revert the Necro back to the way it was in PVE and give the Mesmer a rocket launcher for PVE only. Then the only thing left to complain about would be about how ugly the rocket launcher is.

Lord Mendes · Apr 18, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

To everyone arguying with me in the soul reaping thread, read the OP.
Thanks.

P.S. Please don't make a bunch of new pre-nerf spiritual pain type skills, or if you do, make them PvE only.

Nekretaal · Apr 18, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Raiser

There is no need to "shelve your necromancer" you just need to learn how to play it without unlimited amounts of energy. Try watching that little blue bar and bring some energy management skills like the other professions.

Read the above OP again. Anet clearly doesnt know what to do with the class. They think the old rules were broken and the new rules are broken (inelegant) Whats the point of spending the time learning to play something that, either way, is broken.

Why not shelve your necromancer and wait until anet fixes the issue?

Macktar Wang · Apr 18, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by fgarvin

We're all adults here, there won't be any flames...I'm sure of it.

I assume you are being sarcastic, cause...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekretaal

Or in other words, shelve your necromancer until anet figures out what to do with the class, because they dont know what to do with the class right now, and dont hope for Mesmers to be decent in pvE until new skills from GW:EN come out.

The Ernada · Apr 18, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekretaal

Read the above OP again. Anet clearly doesnt know what to do with the class. They think the old rules were broken and the new rules are broken (inelegant) Whats the point of spending the time learning to play something that, either way, is broken.

Why not shelve your necromancer and wait until anet fixes the issue?

Yes please shelve your necro because you clearly dont know how to play one without near infinite energy.

deadmonkey4u · Apr 18, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Glad to see a-net taking the time to look at the suggestions of people. o_O

Shanaeri Rynale · Apr 18, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Thanks for the update Gaile. xD

Do you have any timescale on the implementation of these changes. There's a long way to go til GW:en and it would help no end if these were in place sooner than that. Hard Mode awaits after all.

VitisVinifera · Apr 18, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

I love this........Gw has been around 2 years and NOW they nerf soul reaping. And it looks like they have no idea what to do now that it's even more broken on the downside that it was beneficiary on the upside. One solitary skill balancer........and a plethora of much better ideas from the community

Socrates The Mauler · Apr 18, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

I for one haven't played my necro since the nerf. If they buff up mesmers I'll delete the necro and start a new mesmer just so I won't have to play with a crippled toon.

explodemyheart · Apr 18, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekretaal

Read the above OP again. Anet clearly doesnt know what to do with the class. They think the old rules were broken and the new rules are broken (inelegant) Whats the point of spending the time learning to play something that, either way, is broken.

"Investigating a better way" does not mean "they don't know what to do with it". I'm quite sure they have a few ideas in mind, they are, as Gaile said, investigating (meaning testing) what would possibly be the best solution.

Inelegant does not mean "broken" either. The only people insisting that necromancers are broken now are the people like you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekretaal

Why not shelve your necromancer and wait until anet fixes the issue?

Because they're still extremely useful.

Keithark · Apr 18, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

In this Dev Update, you can read details about changes to two professions: Necromancers and Mesmers. In the first case, changes to the Necromancer attribute Soul Reaping have raised a few specific player concerns, and the dev team would like to share an update on that subject. In the second case, you'll find preliminary information about how the designers are looking at the Mesmer, with some early thoughts on potential changes to the profession that will be directed towards Mesmer players in PvE mode.

Necromancers and Soul Reaping

In a nutshell, Soul Reaping was working too powerfully in the past. After all, all professions save the Necromancer have had to keep a careful eye on energy management, because managing that resource is intended to be a significant part of the gameplay experience. No profession should be in a position to have a nearly-limitless supply or energy, and frankly, Soul Reaping was just too powerful in the overall scope of things. Some have suggested that the recent changes were put in place to rebalance PvP, but in fact, both PvP and PvE were affected by the overly generous way in which Soul Reaping worked. This was highlighted for the team in recent months during their Hard Mode playbalance tests.

The goal of the change to Soul Reaping is to bring the Necromancer's energy pool to a more reasonable level in a way that affects extreme cases more than normal cases. The existing change does successfully place an upper limit on energy from Soul Reaping, but the designers are concerned that the five second rule is inelegant, being a little random in its effects when triggering Soul Reaping through quick kills. They are going to continue to investigate a better way to accomplish the same energy-related "reality check" while being a bit more lenient in how it is applied. If this is done, some of the recent energy cost changes to skills may be reverted.

Those who have contributed forum posts with detailed builds have helped immeasurably. You should know that every single build you've posted is being reproduced at ArenaNet, and not only that, it is being tested with both the former SR rules and the current ones. This allows the designers to acquire a "before and after" view, which will help the designers get a realistic appraisal of where the Nec was and where it is now. With that information, they can look at the best means to accomplish their intended goal. So while Soul Reaping will not be adjusted back to the way it was, the designers will continue to look at ways to achieve the desired outcomes in the best way possible.

Copied post from Daisuko...I think it is a very good post and something that dev's may not be taking into consideration with the SR nerf, thought I'd post it here in-case you miss it on the other thread:

That's exactly the point of being a Necromancer in the first place, for Endurance over an extended period of time... Mesmers are meant to shut down whatever they're designed to, they can do both, melee and casters. Also, there are MANY energy stealing mesmer skills, equip a few and you're good to go. Elementalist ALSO have good energy managment, as well as an energy ceiling higher than any other class can attain... Mesmers can string off more spells due to shortaned casting time, and elementalists can use more high-costing spells.. neither of them being death-dependant. Necromancers only get their energy if something does in fact die, if nothing's dying, they don't get energy, and their energy pool dwindles away. In PvE Deaths are usually not hard to attain, save for in high-level areas... and due to AI changes, mostly you must spike entire groups to death all at once, therefore you would only gain the energy from 1 death instead of all... Minion bombing, for one, (though I haven't tried since the update) would likely be highly ineffective, since the entire idea is to make multiple minions quickly, and then cause them all to explode at once, causing massive spike damage. However, now you will only gain enough energy from doing so to cast maybe 1 or 2 minion spells to attempt to re-build your army of bombs before you're defenseless.

Furthermore, while Necrmancers are the only class who can "bank" their energy on mob deaths, that relies on a steady supply of deaths... There are many, MANY skills to gain energy. EVERY class has energy managment of some sort, And skills aside, Barrage, Triple chop/Cyclone axe or Hundred Blades, and all Scythe attacks can gain energy fairly quickly without any skills at all, merely using a zealous weapon. There are also Balthazar's spirit, and the mantras wich gain energy on hit... Heck, Greater conflagration combined with Storm chaser is the fastest method of energy gain I can think of. While Necromancers are the only ones relying on deaths for energy, they're really the only ones that NEED to rely on deaths for energy. For example...

A ranger decides to be R/Mo, puts on essance bond and Balthazar's spirit, with a Zealous Bow.

There will be no energy regeneration at all. Someone else in the party brings Greater Conflagration....

The ranger wears Pyrebound armor.

Suddenly, you have a ranger who (with high enough expertise or targets) Is GAINING energy upon each barrage, and if anyone attacks said ranger, they gain 6 energy per attack as all attacks would be elemental. It would only take a very paltry amount of hits on that ranger to boost it's energy to maximum, and with expertise further reducing the cost of skills, Near-infinite energy is attained.

Or perhaps any elementalist who runs E/Me Stone striker/Mantra of earth?

What about warrior's endurance or Zealous Vow? Both of those give warriors or dervish extremely high energy gain.

And as long as there are no skills to prevent critical hits, assassins can often gain 4 or 5 energy per critical hit, and have several skills available to ensure critical hits...

So while Necromancers may very well be the only one counting on deaths, they're really the only one that needs to, since their primary attribute does just that, and all other classes have other, easier to attain methods of gaining energy.

And lastly, (how many times have I said this so far?) Factions does not have ANY energy managment aside from soul reaping based in necromancer-only skills. Offering of blood and Consume corpse are Prophecies, and Signet of lost souls and Reaper's mark are both Nightfall. What does that leave those who only own factions? I'll tell you what, Nothing. Nothing but Soul reaping wich is far less reliable than it once was.

MSecorsky · Apr 18, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekretaal

...and dont hope for Mesmers to be decent in pvE until new skills from GW:EN come out.

Mesmers are already quite useful in PvE, it's just that non-mesmers tend to be far too intellectually challenged to realize this simple fact.

Sir Skullcrasher · Apr 18, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

I wonder when the new updates is coming?

Renegade26 · Apr 18, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The word from Lead Designer James Phinney on Mesmers is that the designers are going to take a look at potentially widening the scope of the Mesmers and, perhaps, adding more damage to the mix in a "Mesmer-themed way." The Mesmer will never become a pure damage-dealer, not at all! But the team wants to look at an increase in both scope and damage while considering how to improve the lot of Mesmers in PvE.

So youre going to make some spells AoE and increase the damage like you did with Signet of Clumsiness?

The real problem is that Meteor Shower pwns all pve, and with echos and glyphs of renewals thats all an ele needs. Add an SS for constant damage in AoE, and you win PvE.

Bonds are too strong as a form of defence, meaning that any caster can just nuke the enemy without the need to shut them down.

Tanking makes the whole thing even simpler; line them up, and nuke them down.

Where could a Mesmer fit into such PvE? Fix PvE, not mesmers.